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Case of Kaysersberg to Lapoutroie, maybe about 1800:

Case number:

ALSACAT-1800-00-00-KAYSERSBERGLAPOUTROIE-1

Summary:

The famous Alsatian folklore specialist Auguste Stoeber reported the legend that follows; which he says he had heard.

"A man from Kaysersberg had business to deal with at two strong more hours in the mountains located in Schnierlach (La Poutroye) [Lapoutroie ], he took the road even before day dawned. And suddenly there came rolling behind him a large, heavy carriage. At the invitation of the coachman he stepped into it, but was not a little surprised, because he felt lifted into the air. The coachman did not listen the man's louds and repeated calls. But when the first pale light of the day came in the sky, he felt a bump of the carriage, and the unwilling aerial passenger was deposited on the top of a high mountain, opposite Lapoutroie."

Some ufologists see in such ancient stories a reason to defend this or that theory about flying saucers.

This case was cited by Frédéric Dumerchat in an article evoking similarities between folkloric and ufological material, in the ufology magazine Lumières Dans La Nuit #237-238 of March - April 1984.

Data:

Temporal data:

Geographical data:

Witnesses data:

Ufology data:

Classifications:

Sources:

[Ref. asr1:] AUGUSTE STOEBER:

In modern characters:

In English:

[Ref. lim1:] GUENTER LIPOWSKI AND DANIEL MORGEN:

Günter Lipowsky and Daniel Morgen worked for more than two years to create a new version of the legends of Alsace collected and published for the first time by Auguste Stoeber (1808-1884). Here is one of them:

In English:

"A man from Kaysersberg wanted to do business in Schnierlach (La Poutroye) [Lapoutroie], which is about another two hours away in the mountains. Even before it was day, he started his trip, when suddenly a large, heavy carriage came up behind him. The coachman offered him to enter. The man was surprised when the coach suddenly rose in the air. The coachman did not want to hear the man's loud and repeated calls. But when was the first pale light of the day appeared in the sky, the door of the carriage opened, and the air traveler in spite of himself was deposited on the summit of the mountain that sits above Lapoutroie."

[Ref. ldl1:] UFOLOGY MAGAZINE "LUMIERES DANS LA NUIT":

The notes are: (78): "County capital."; (79): "Id."; (80) "Variot, t.ll, p. 287."

[Ref. ope1:] UFOLOGY MAGAZINE "OVNI PRESENCE":

In this magazine, Frédéric Dumerchat indicates that one can find ancient stories of "aerial abductions" attributed to flying carriages in Alsace in the 18th and 19th centuries, reporteed as real stories by Auguste Stöber in the 19th century.

One of those he gives is that a man from Kaysersberg in the Haut-Rhin set out before daybreak; suddenly a large and heavy coach caught up with him. At the coachman's invitation, he got in and was lifted into the air with the whole crew despite his screams. At the first light of day, the door opened violently and he was dropped on top of a mountain in front of Lapoutriche in the Haut-Rhin.

He gives as source his own article in [ldl1].

Discussion:

Lapoutroie is about 8 km East-North-East of Kayserserg.

Some ufologists or Fortean researchers focus, for various reasons, to looking in old texts, dated before the "flying saucers era", for stories that would relate to this topic.

Among their reasons, some are contradictory. Some seek to demonstrate that "flying saucers" cannot be a "modern hype" since ancient stories from before this supposed hype were already reporting UFOs. Others want to show that "flying saucers" are indeed the modern version of old nonsense such as religious appearances or stories of "flying coaches" whose only connection with the UFO question is that nonsense always existed.

Some of these researchers have become specialists in such ancient stories, foaming libraries to find in old newspapers or books of legends texts recounting alleged facts more or less obviously suggestive of "flying saucers". We can think of Jacques Vallée, Jean Sider, Chris Aubeck and many others, including the Alsatian Christian Valentin who listed some stories of this kind in my area - with caution, as I do.

To be clear, I do not think any argument can be seriously held from such documents. These are not established "facts", there is almost never any contemporary investigation or verification, it is usually too late to try to establish any "truth" in it. Sometimes, however, we can show that the "case" was only a misinterpretation, sometimes a hoax, usually we can only pronounce that the story cannot be taken at face value, that nothing can demonstrate that it is a factual narrative.

So then I would not have to mention cases like the one I'm filing here.

But that would expose me to a critique regularly made by some ufologists who think that a priori rejection of such material is to be "blind" or close minded or in denial of this or that thesis.

So as I don't want to be subjected to this sort of criticism, I document this case. Even though there is no mention of the story in the UFO literature, apparently nobody found out about this story yet, I give the report, documented and referenced, and my comment.

Here we have a story of a flying coach and its involuntary passenger. Such stories have been published in the UFO literature as falling within the ufology topic. This is one more, unpublished as such so far. It is quite remarkable in the genre because the lack of descriptions and of both the coach and the coach driver, the absence of any human character such as some words said by the coach driver or mention of horses allows to imagine that this was of a flying saucer and its alien pilot, undescribed because it could not enter into the concepts of that time. This would be no less than the old version of an "alien abduction". There would be an effect of incommensurability here. "Flying coach" was used for flying saucers, "devil" for the pilot, for lack of better concepts.

Who knows? I cannot claim that it is impossible. But I cannot claim and will not claim that this is the case here. I rather think it's just a popular local legend without any basis to conclude anything more than the fact such stories exist.

Lastly, I note that the original story of Auguste Stoeber is repeated in several books on Alsatian folklore, such as:

• "Légendes et traditions orales d'Alsace - Volume 3", book by Jean James Variot, G. Crès et cie publishers, France, page 287, 1920.
• "Les légendes du diable en Alsace", book by Gérard Leser, Editions du Bastberg publishers, France, page 22, 2004.
• "Contes et légendes d'Alsace", book by Roger Maudhuy, Place Stanislas publishers, France, page 259, 2004.

Evaluation:

Local folklore, unverifiable, probably not related to the question of UFOs.

Sources references:

* = Source is available to me.
? = Source I am told about but could not get so far. Help needed.

• [asr1] * "Die Sagen des Elsasses", book by Auguste Stöber, Scheitlin und Zollikofer publishers, Germany, page 106, 1852.
• [lim1] * "Sagen des Elsasses nach August Stöber", by Günter Lipowsky and Daniel Morgen, at http://www.crdp-strasbourg.fr/data/lcr/legendes/textes/teufelskutschen.pdf?parent=23
• [ldl1] * "En passant par l'Alsace. Note sur l'intérêt du folklore (2 - Suite et fin)", article by Frédéric Dumerchat, in the ufology magazine Lumières Dans La Nuit (LDLN), France, #237-238, page 5, March / April 1984.
• [ope1] * "Le thème de l'enlèvement aérien du XVIe au XXe siècle", article by Frédéric Dumerchat, in the ufology magazine Ovni Présence, Switzerland, #39, page 10, February 1988.

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